This claim suggests that a bit-perfect stream, no matter how noisy, should sound identical across all sources, regardless of cable, USB conditioners, streamer/music server used. If this is the case, an investment in a good high-end streamer or music server may not be required. Considering the fact I’ve found music servers/streamers to be essential for optimal fidelity, this is quite a statement. Too good to be true? Let’s see…
Notes: Rob Watts has acknowledged a bit-perfect optical stream to the DAVE will sound a little different from the USB so please keep that in mind.
These are the questions I’m aiming to answer:
This should’ve been a really straight forward experiment but I had trouble with switching out USB cables with Roon without having to reboot my computer almost every time. I finally realized you have to wait until the purple dot (Lossless stream) disappears before you connect the next one. Hopefully this helps others who are crazy and also want to test this out.
The only cable I had outside of the stock was the Chord SilverPlus (which I enjoyed with the Neo 430HAD’s bulit-in DAC). I listened to literally a hundred tracks from different genres, trying to find one with a difference. I couldn’t. So I went into my closet and pulled out a cheap USB cable with a similar gauge as the stock and a retractable USB cable for kicks.
The differences between the stock/SilverPlus and the other two cables were obvious. Even though Roon was supposedly streaming bit-perfect (purple dot), the sonic output was obviously different. Just stick to the stock China DAVE USB cable as it performs at the same level as the $100 Chord SilverPlus.
This one was a tedious experiment but was something I was curious about. I know I’ve heard differences between laptops using the same USB cable to the DAVE before but it was inconsistent. Sometimes it sounded identical and sometimes wildly different. I thought I was going insane (well I guess I am for even conducting these tests lol). Then I realized what was happening.
Your network infrastructure may affect the sound quality you’re getting from the DAVE, even if Roon states it’s bit-perfect. When playing music files directly, I heard no difference between the various sources. I’m going to have to investigate this a bit further in a future post.
I have both of these conditioners on-hand and fed them from a Teradak linear power supply. For these tests, I’m using the stock DAVE USB cable.
USB conditioners aren’t required for the DAVE but help other DACs I’ve tested enormously. This is the reason why I didn’t use them on the DAVE for any of these tests. DAVE doesn’t need it.
UPDATE: After testing the PS Audio LANRover and a few other USB conditioners with the DAVE, there was an audible difference between the various USB conditioners. The only difference was that I swapped out the TeraDak power supply for their stock power supplies and replaced the USB cable with the Chord SilverPlus. In the end, there was a big enough difference between the various conditioners (even between the W4s and Uptone) that I figured I would mention this. Unfortunately I no longer have all the original devices to reaffirm this but I would recommend trying out a USB conditioner with your DAVE and see if it makes a difference for your setup.
As mentioned in the setup, the Lumin S1 will output optical via HDMI through a converter recommended by Roy. The USB source will be my MSI GS40 laptop. Because of the odd issue with network streams, I’ve only conducted tests with local files on both sources. Also, the Lumin S1 uses Airplay as its streamer which maxes out at 16/44.
I couldn’t help but to do think: Does streaming the exact file via Roon to the Lumin’s streaming service sound the same as streaming the file directly from the Lumin’s USB port? So after testing a large set of files (All 16/44 due to the limitation of the Lumin’s Airplay streamer), I’ve concluded that it’s a night & day difference. The soundstage collapses and the organics disappear.
Basically, I couldn’t stream wirelessly from my laptop’s WiFi module to the router to the ASUS wireless bridge to the Lumin without catastrophic loss in dynamics on all fronts. Obviously, it’s better to keep your gear wired but I was appalled that it made this much of a difference. It’s important to note, Roon still says the stream is bit-perfect.
The awesome thing about Roon is that you could play the same track 10 seconds after each other to hear the same piece when switching inputs on the Neo 430HA. Worked wonderfully well for this review.
You may get a headache reading the raw notes as they were done over the course of a few weeks in different rooms with different power, etc, but there may be some interesting tidbits.
Tank loves to photobomb!
My apartment has a 15 and 20 amp line. I’m not quite sure when they were replaced but I’m going to presume they’re old. I do know the 20 amp was re-wired in the past 10 years. I didn’t really think about this until Project EvaD…and you’ll see why.
As far as setup, everything is still the same, plugged into the P10, etc. The only differences was moving the equipment over from my office (15 amp line) to my living room where I’ve dedicated a 20 amp line to my home theater.
During my initial testing, with Crossfeed set to 0, the Lumin was definitely more transparent but too lean to be natural sounding. It definitely had more of that “Hi-Fi” sound. The MSI GS40 was warmer and didn’t have the depth the Lumin had but was more musical and natural. During this time, the USB sounded more true but the Lumin was without a doubt, more holographic with a quieter background.
In direct comparison to the Lumin, there’s a bit of smearing across the frequencies via USB. Overall, with Crossfeed 0, I would pick the Lumin + a warmer Abyss cable over the laptop’s USB connection.
Perhaps the Lumin has been overlooked as a streamer? I’m hoping to get a Lumin U1 to do more testing but…there’s definitely a difference here. Amazing considering the optical input of the DAVE is supposedly not as good as the USB input.
Enter Crossfeed 3…
When going back and forth between sources with Crossfeed 0, there was an audible and obvious differences between the two sources. The testing was actually similar to what I’ve experienced in the past testing other sources. It was really easy to determine which one sounded cleaner and tighter.
However, with Crossfeed 3 enabled…the differences were subtle. Almost like the data from the optical and USB is shaped into the same output stream when Crossfeed 3 is activated. I don’t know for sure but this is what I’ve concluded from my listening (I’m sure Rob Watts could chime in). I don’t hear any immediate difference from optical or USB only if Crossfeed 3 is used. To be clear, there are differences, but they aren’t noticeable unlike Crossfeed 0.
In Crossfeed 0, the USB just sounds more natural and musical but lacks a bit of depth. It still sounds like it has a deep soundstage until you compare it directly with the Lumin. On Crossfeed 3, the Lumin kills the USB. From a technical standpoint. The Lumin has more of the holographic sound but isn’t really accurate or faithful until Crossfeed 3 is activated. You almost get the best of both worlds in Crossfeed 3 with the Lumin S1.
In other words, when I switch between Crossfeed 0 and 3 with just the Lumin, the holistic sonic differences were significant (Hopefully someone else with a Lumin S1 could confirm this). With the DAVE not so much. However, with Crossfeed 3, both the Lumin and the DAVE sounded more similar and I couldn’t immediately tell the difference (like I did with Crossfeed 0)…but in the end, the Lumin still had more depth, tighter, and a quieter background.
Here is where things get interesting.
So after some time, I moved the equipment to my other room with a dedicated 20 amp line. It was for my home theater but I didn’t think much of it. I did have it rewired maybe 10 years ago but I don’t think the actual wire was replaced. This didn’t cross my mind until I heard differences in the setup.
Keep in mind, all equipment is still plugged into the P10, same as before. This time the Lumin was much warmer, lush, sweet, amazing. The DAVE was on the thinner end but both at least were able to sound their best without any flaws. At this point, I found the USB input to be better than what I was hearing from the Lumin S1. It just had a very rich and lush tonality that I felt was very truthful. The Lumin S1 still had a quieter background and had a tiny bit more depth but the trade-offs with its more artificial tonality took away from the music. I wish I had a pair of HE-1000s but with the Abyss…I preferred the USB input in this setup.
UPDATE (5/4/2016): I’ve found that the harshness I was hearing was actually due to using the laptop as the source. It may have also affected the Lumin vs DAVE impression, which now places DAVE in an even stronger position. Using the Sonicoribter and iPad as the controller offered significant sonic improvement (as opposed to controlling Roon directly from the laptop). A dedicated Roon box is probably best.
So in closing, this is what I’ve concluded:
The Chord DAVE is gift to the audio world. It is truly an amazing piece of engineering that differentiates itself with a sound quality that currently cannot be touch. Reviews of other DACs claim they hear the individual hits of a key on a piano or the movement of a guitarist’s wrist as he strums quick across notes. In the past, I’ve also said those things about some of these high-end DACS. However, what the DAVE does is it adds much more detail, dimension, air, and timing into the mix. Instead of getting an “idea” that something is there, you’re just presented with it. Not just with detail but with rhythm, body, and dimension. Something I’ve yet to hear for other DACs.
Let me illustrate this with an example: If Helen Keller were given a DAVE with an Abyss Headphone and she’s listening to a live recording in 24/192, she would get her vision back. She would be able to get a visual of the size of the player, size of the room, what was played, how it was played, the strength it was played at, and distances between each player and herself. It’s like you’re there! I had no clue a Red Book recording could contain this much information and I’m grateful that now, with the DAVE, we could listen to music with an insanely three-dimensional presentation.
For what it’s worth, even after what I’ve learn from this project, I would still be pretty damn happy with a Lumin S1 or MSB Analog. They sound fantastic and are more than good enough for high-end musical enjoyment. Those who have a Berkeley Alpha Reference are enjoying something really special.
During this audio journey, we fall in love, we fall out of love, and we take 2nd mortgage in hopes of obtaining an “end-game” audio setup. If it’s not obvious to you by now, there is no such thing as end-game in audio. For one, Chord’s going to make sure of that, especially if they have Rob Watts on board. They’re going to keep moving the bar up and that’s a wonderful thing. Secondly, sometimes we get so caught up in the gear, we forget to listen to the music, get audio burn-out, then we get hit by a car. It’s about the music guys.
When I refer to PC, I’m talking about the laptop. These raw notes also included impressions from streams, which should taken with a grain of salt.
Tracks:
In order to remove the network influences of the stream to the Lumin, I’ve attached a drive directly with identical files and played off the Lumin application on the iPad mini. Roon will only play directly to the attached DAVE. The following were tests done only with physical files on both the PC and Lumin end.
Damien Rice – I Don’t Want to Change You (24/96)
Dave Brubeck Quartet (Live at Carnegie Hall) – St. Louis Blues – (16/44)
So at this point, there’s obviously an audible difference between the Lumin to optical and PC to USB. I pulled up a quieter laptop of mine (not a gaming laptop), the Lenovo T420, installed Roon and transferred the same files over to that laptop and hooked up the DAVE. Using the same recording (file):
Dave Brubeck Quartet (Live at Carnegie Hall) – St. Louis Blues – (16/44)
With Crossfeed 3, it closes the gap between performances between the two. It’s really subtle but the Lumin is still more transparent and provides more sharpness and clarity. Lumin is also more resolving of micro-details and has more impactful and tighter bass. The Lumin as a source brings life and a 3D space to everything. I much prefer the Lumin as a source in this comparison.
Now I’m not sure what’s accounting for the different sound from the sources as both should be bit-perfect.
Rob Watts
Hmm – sounds like most likely explanation is that its not bit perfect files. Even if a single stage of gain scaling happens, it will make a big difference to the sound – see my earlier post about my -301 dB test. If data is not properly handled when its adjusted, it will lose depth, and if really bad truncation, will also sound harder.
Normally if the optical is not bit perfect you will get drop-outs as it falls in and out of lock, so I don’t expect its the optical connection.
In “Crossfeed 0” the USB directly to the PC sounds audibly flatter and warmer than the Lumin’s optical. The Lumin in general is much more holographic but a bit too lean/bright. In Crossfeed 3, this makes both sources sound much more alike but still giving the edge to the Lumin. Enter the Sonicoribiter.
Because I haven’t learned my lesson, I’m using the same wireless bridge for the Sonicoribiter as I did with the Lumin during the first part of this test. I’m expecting it to have the same thin sound with loss of dynamics. I’m using the USB output of the oribiter to the USB input of the DAVE. The Linear PSU is plugged into the PS Audio P10. All testing will be done in Crossfeed 3. I’ll be using the same exact files on both ends. Also, one change is that all the equipment now is connected to a semi-dedicated 20 amp line in my apartment.
Dave Brubeck Quartet – Louis Blues (16/44)
Nirvana – About a Girl (MTV Unplugged in New York) (24/96)
Norah Jones – Come Away With Me (24/192)
Metallica – Enter Sandman (24/96)
At this point I’ve connected the laptop and sonicoribiter to the router directly with a SOtM cable to enable smooth 24/192 streaming
Norah Jones – Come Away With Me (24/192)
Dave Brubeck Quartet – Take Five (24/96)
Bach Cantatas Vol. 43 – Aria (24/192)
Paco de Lucia – Mediterranean Sundance/Rio Ancho (24/176.4)
Beck – The Golden Age (24/96)
It Was a Pleasure Then – Nico (24/192)
Taylor Swift – Sparks Fly (24/96)
Switching back to USB direct to the laptop:
Sanity Check – Chord Hugo TT via Lumin and via USB
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Fantastic review! Just wondering what you think about the Mojo and how it stacks up against the other dacs mentioned here. How does it compare to the Dave?
My first few days with Mojo had me shedding tears as well as receiving goosebumps. There were many times when I was listening to artists such as Dean Martin and Elvis and felt as if they were singing into my soul! Does the dave also have Mojo's euphonic characteristic but a super refined presentation?
Hey Max! Sorry for the late response. IMO the Chord Hugo portable is still technically better than the Mojo but the Mojo is, like you mentioned, euphonic. The DAVE is just plain transparent. It doesn't color the sound in any way and gives it to you raw. It is the most detailed DAC I've ever heard.
I really enjoyed this article, and it was really one of the pieces that directed me to get the DAVE.
However, there is a fatal flaw in your assessments, which has to do with your choice music, inasmuch as introducing recordings that are dynamically limited, compressed, and clipped, one cannot possibly claim a critical listen, no matter the DAC, power cables, interconnects, etc. (which, by the way, is not limited to just your review of the DAVE). The simple fact is, in order to attain what the DAVE is supposed to do, i.e. render the closest one can get to the original analog source, any recording that has been killed by overt digital manipulation in the mastering phase cannot be considered a quality source for deep aural investigation. To wit, here are but a few examples with their corresponding DR values:
Colbie Caillat - Never Gonna Let You Down – DR6
Coldplay - Hymn For The Weekend – DR5
Coldplay - Adventure Of A Lifetime – DR5
Eminem – Love The Way You Lie – DR6
Taylor Swift - Everything Has Changed – DR7
Adele - Can't Let Go – DR6
Ice Cube - Ask About Me – DR8
Paramore – Crushcrushcrush – DR5
Damien Rice - 9 Crimes – DR6
While you certainly have some dynamic cuts on your roster, even the introduction of one compromised track is akin to walking into a lab with your cleanroom suit, only to unzip your fly and introduce urine into the petri dish. The experiment has been compromised.
I say all of this not to dog you out, but for greater care to be taken with further articles, and how you allow your choice of music to effect the outcome in a less than optimal way, especially since you have a great passion for music, and well-tempered control methods for arriving at your conclusions.
Indeed, most assuredly I do not possess your technical knowledge; nevertheless, I know that there is a quite a difference between the music that I would thump in my ride vs. the songs (and their inherent musical cues) that I would test a series of DACs with. After all, it is about the music, first, and its inherent properties that dictates its qualitative outcome. Anything less than the attempt to get as close to the original source as possible will render a 7K audio cable as useful as a sack llama feces.
Your pal,
The Devil
Hey Nick! My apologies for the late response, been working on a few projects. I really appreciate your feedback and glad you decided on a DAVE. You're right, unequivocally the choice of music does matter when evaluating audio gear and some of my choices might've not been optimal for critical listening. However, after coming up with various methodologies of evaluating gear (including keeping to strictly great/renowned recordings with high dynamic range), I've concluded testing audio equipment with music you're extremely intimate with carries more weight than one would think. This is regardless of whether it was mastered well or not. That said, well-engineered recordings would be preferred and necessary, but you'd be amazed at the audible benefits from what some would consider poor or low DR recordings. It brings more euphony and details to recordings you hold close...and that's what matters the most.
It's important to realize high DR is just one attribute of a great recording but I've found, even after digging through sites like http://dr.loudness-war.info/, just because a recording has high DR, doesn't mean it sounds great and would necessarily be advantageous in evaluating and comparing equipment. Some high DR, quieter passages actually sound very similar between the devices but often times with low DR, busier, and high energy recordings, the differences are clearly audible. Even with low DR, poorly produced/compressed albums like Adele's 21, there's still merit in evaluating those tracks. Consequently, I've found with low DR recordings, you're able to pick out the minute differences within a narrower area of the spectrum, which allows me to recognize and focus on those frequencies in other recordings.
Musical enjoyment is largely subjective and equipment evaluation is pseudo-objective, I think throwing in a variety of recordings, "audiophile-grade" or not, is healthy for a more holistic impression and evaluation of the equipment. My goal for the DAVE review was to zone into the overarching differences between the various DACs and by listening to all types of recordings, I feel this builds more confidence in my conclusion. I believe this approach enhances rather than compromises the experiment.
That said, if you have any recordings you would like to be included in any future reviews, I'd be glad to check them out :)
Jay, you are complelty awesome. I mean that. Your reviews are great, and I will not argue your methods.
It is true; I am a sad soldier, in combat on the front of losing war. Not a voice crying in the wilderness, but one of the few voices, indeed. We will lose this war.
It is equally true that full dynamics do not always sound great, even good, or even listenable. I, however, really feel the push on my eardrums, this claustrphobic headache I get from low DRs, almost - almost - without exception.
It doesn't matter, though. This is your home and I'm thankful that you've invited me in. Now, allow me clean the dirt I tracked in from your carpet.
Don't be silly, you could wear your shoes into this home anytime. I'm still curious as to which albums/tracks you would like to see in these reviews. I would gladly include them. Who knows, maybe my methodologies need a bit of tweaking and I'm open to that.
You are not alone.
Throw on Elvis' "Elvis is Back!," track 2, "Fever." This is one of my favorite tracks to audition a system with. It's very, very wide stereo in 1960, and if the system is right the recording should give a real holographic sound coming from the natural reverb in the famed RCA Studio 2, Nashville, TN. Moreover, how smooth does his voice come off? How much ambiance do the drums and cymbals give off as they fade to black? Double bass is hard to capture right. Do you hear the physical construction of the strings on the neck, or is it just notes?
This is an extremely good test track. The Sony Legacy Edition is tops!
For the DAVE we know that depth perception is important, as it offers us a new, deeper, view into the music, one that should be there if properly mic'ed, etc. Anyway, a great window into depth should be just about any track from Pink Floyd's "The Final Cut" album. It was recorded with the experimental Holophonic System, which really works, especially on cans. Just about any edition would do, especially the 1992 & 1994 masters, although the 1983 and 2004 aren't bad.
Be sure to turn off the DAVE's crossfeed for the Floyd album.
That's all I have for now, as I'm trying to figure out how I'll get me a short run of Shunyata Alpha Digital Zitron with paying close to a G.
Hello Jay,
I'm thinking of getting myself a killer end-all DAC and DAVE is very much on the radar, of course, I still have to save some before I can afford it, but I'll get it in 2017 (End of 2016 now)
The review is very indepth but I must ask you this, you have on page 5, a section called Raw Notes, I don't understand it, you were comparing with Lumin? DAC or what? Because you mention Lumin wins everything pretty much, yes, if you must ask, I read the review a little more in the past though not the whole review, and this time either, so no, sorry, can't read it all.
I'm currently using a decent system: PC > Auralic Vega > Audio-gd Master 9 > HD800S
If you meant something else by the word Lumin and Chord DAVE is a sure killer then, will the simple change of Auralic Vega to Chord DAVE be a massive improvement or is there something that can be improved even better currently? I know DACs as much as those Audio Atheists sing praise science and DACs don't affect sound quality, I know that they do very much affect the sound.
Best Regards and I hope you'll still be able to answer my question in the nearby future even though this article is somewhat old already.
Ignore the question about Lumin - I just re-read you meant Lumin S1 as a streamer, just that you talked about it as a DAC too...
So I guess Chord DAVE is a true winner for people looking for both musicality and detail/soundstage.
Addition of Crossfeed setting feature in a uber high-end DACs is also interesting :)
Can I ask you about Chord hugo which I had for more than 1 year .
TO be honest it didn't sound that good. if you still have it ? what's your chain looks like from pc>usb > hugo or it's diff than this ?
this is important for me : if I use W4S Recovery + Teradak Linear PSU with hugo do you think it's will sound way better than before ?
and please comapre it hugoi TT with the same setup pc >usb>W4S Recovery + Teradak Linear PSU .
Thanks alot
There are plenty of DACs that sound better than the Chord Hugo. Even the internal DAC of the Simaudio Neo 430HAD sounded better. I just think it's the best portable DAC. Of course, all a matter of preference. I'll be posting a review of all the USB conditioners (iFi USB3.0, Uptone Regen, W4S Recovery, etc in the next couple of weeks). I'll also be testing a few Linear PSUs. In short, these USB conditioners will make an enormous difference. I no longer have the Hugo TT but these conditioners would benefit the TT as well. We really under estimate the noise from a PC.
My ideal chain for the Hugo would be a microRendu + Uptone LPS-1 and stream from Roon/Tidal. If you have to use a PC, the iFi USB3.0 looks promising and just pair that will a decent linear PSU.
Hi Jay,
do the DAVE gives full power to the Abyss? Do you know the power (watt) that this DAC gives to the Abyss?
Best regards!!!
Nicola
Hey Nicola! The DAVE supplies more than enough power to the Abyss. I don't go past -8dB. It's ear-splitting past that point.